Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

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Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Surreal » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:36 pm

This is a topic that I have seen come up time and time again, and not be properly addressed by server management at any point in the past. For the purposes of immersion and being able to properly role-play your environment, I think that having an official stance on the background/history/lore of LS-RP's San Andreas would be a sensible move.

That being said, I don't want to force something on the server that rubs people the wrong way. We've all role-played here for a long time and I think the community deserves to be part of the decision process if we actually decide to establish an official stance on San Andreas' history, location, etc etc that everyone has to factor into their role-play.

Unfortunately, we have to deal with the hand we're dealt map-wise, and there will never be 100% satisfaction with what's chosen. My personal opinion would be to role-play San Andreas as an island state off the West Coast of the United States. I would also say that Los Angeles, Las Vegas and San Francisco still exist because if we pretend they don't exist, that kind of insinuates that San Andreas replaces them when that shouldn't be the case, in my opinion. Los Santos etc are "additional" cities that don't exist in real-life, but are part of the United States when we're on the server.

What about key dates? When was the state and the various cities founded? When was the Los Santos Police Department founded? When was the San Andreas Sheriff's Department founded? Details and dates like these would compliment role-play and allow players to know the history of the city/state they are role-playing in. It's another layer of immersion.

What are your thoughts on my idea? Do you have your own? Please, discuss.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Cranlet » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:45 pm

I agree. People will say that it breaks immersion to roleplay California and Nevada existing. Those people are completely and utterly wrong. It breaks even more immersion to RP in the real world yet ignore the VAST amounts of pop culture that reference/are set in California and Nevada. We are RPing in the real world. Not the singleplayer world. In my mind, Liberty City, Vice City, Carcer City, et cetera all don't exist. Instead they're replaced by NYC, Miami, and Detroit (?). They do exist in the ingame universe though.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Chanel » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:48 pm

Honestly it'd be amazing to be reminded of such monumental and historical figures of LSRP who clearly shaped LSRP into what it is today.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Wildcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:49 pm

Something I roleplay my character's childhood around is the creation of the communities such as Ganton. I won't give you an American history lesson, but after World War II, many real estate developers cashed in on the returning GIs by making large housing areas (neighborhoods, more or less) that GIs could buy for reduced prices as they returned home from the war. Typically, about thirty years after their creation, the GIs moved out and these homes became cheap housing for the African American population of cities. Due to the poverty surrounding these areas, this led to the increase in gang activity and crime in the eighties and onward to today.

San Andreas, in my opinion, should be imagined as a coastal state in the Pacific Ocean, about a thousand miles out from the coast of California. San Andreas would have ideally been first discovered by British explorers in the 16th through 18th centuries. San Andreas was eventually annexed by the United States in a similar circumstance to Hawaii, which would be the only state besides San Andreas to not be connected somehow to mainland North America.

As for Los Santos, it would ideally be founded around the mid-1800s. This is when, ideally, colonists from the United States or wherever would pour in to exploit the land and natural resources of the area. The amount of colonists would eventually grow and outnumber the natives of San Andreas (who, funny enough, I have never seen someone endeavor to roleplay). This led to the United States growing more influence over the island. It would ideally become a territory of the United States in the late-1800s.

San Andreas would be a vital point of control in World War II. Due to its location in proximity to the coast of California, the Empire of Japan would kill to have control over the island. While the Japanese would never gain full control of the island, I'd imagine that the waters surrounding would be hotly contested throughout the war.

After the war, the whole GI thing happens. Veterans coming home from the war move to San Andreas for the cheap housing in the areas of Ganton and East Los Santos. This urbanizes the eastern side of the city and bumps up the population of the island enough to warrant statehood. San Andreas would ideally be made into a state by the late-1950s or early-1960s.

That's how I'd make the general background of San Andreas' history. It mirrors Hawaii a lot due to both being island states, but also has some draw-ins from California (the GI housing, etc).
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Pichu » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:51 pm

I believe there are references IG and the city logo of it being founded in 17xx something, we should stick with that IMO.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Brad » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:52 pm

Whichever way the community choses, I'll just be happy to have a defined ruling if I'm honest. I feel there's pro's and cons for both arguments of using LA/LV/SF and having it as an island, but if we all roleplay it as one way or another I'm willing to bet it'll improve the majority of the things I believe negatively impact immersion, as the majority of my concerns come from people roleplaying it a different way from myself.

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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Neaksy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:53 pm

I'm glad the issue is finally being addressed... though I really don't want SA to be an "island off the coast of California," it really doesn't make sense for the reasons I put in my thread here (which explains everything way better than I'll do here). Some of the reasons as to why SA replaces CA & NV are:
  • San Andreas named after the fault line itself, which runs through the land of California IRL.
  • The same fault line going through San Fierro, consistent to real-life San Francisco.
  • The fact that San Andreas is bigger than the playable map
  • Some locations and places mentioned in radio stations are not rendered in-game.
  • In single-player, 24 minutes IRL equals 24 hours IG.
  • Population is too huge for such small cities, and in-game signs show a bigger pop.
Limiting San Andreas to an island off the coast of California is going to limit roleplay. People like to RP hours passing when travelling from Los Santos to the desert, and vice versa, and I've roleplayed as such since the beginning of time because it's what makes sense. As much as I understand the reasoning behind the whole "California and SA exist alongside each other"' theory, I believe that it can easily be retconned, fixed, and I don't see a hell lot of reasons behind it. I mean, Crenshaw is a place in both Los Santos and Los Angeles, which doesn't make sense, it's either one location exists but you can't have both.

For instance, LSFD's history already mentions its jurisdiction being 470 square miles, which is the same as real-life Los Angeles, and many in-game elements prove the size of SA is bigger than the playable map, namely the fact that 24 minutes in single-player equals to 24 hours IRL, that estimated populations are a lot bigger than there are houses in rural cities (for instance, Dillimore is supposed to have a pop of 2000 as of 1992). Fact is, GTA is a fictional franchise and all of its fictional locations are supposed to be the counterparts of our real-life cities, brands.

The 1992 Los Santos Riots replace the Los Angeles Riots of the same time, many historic events replace real-life ones in the game. Los Santos, San Fierro, Las Venturas are supposed to replace their counterparts, it's just obvious. Why have Inglewood and Idlewood, Vinewood and Hollywood, Compton and Ganton, and so many other replicas of real-life locations coexist in the same universe? Las Venturas and San Fierro are ICly depopulated, and I just don't see how having San Francisco and Vegas exist in the same universe benefit players at all, they're just cities. People already use real-life pictures of LA, SF, LV for in-game San Andreas locations, because they're supposed to replace them.

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That's how I see the USA in the GTA world, with the correct replacements. I've mentioned it in another thread, we can follow the official history of San Andreas in the HD universe (because it's only ever been explored since GTA 5), which is that it used to be a territory of Mexico in the 1800s, Los Santos was founded on September 4, 1781 under the Spanish Empire. Then, American settlers defeated Mexico and took over the territory to establish the San Andreas Republic. I also like to think that Nevada never existed, and that Utah ceded some of its territory to San Andreas but not as much as in real-life.

It would just be sad to deny all this research just because some players can't figure out California and Nevada = San Andreas. It's just way more coherent to RP fictional locations as replacing real-life ones because that's how it was meant to be anyway. Just the mere fact that San Andreas is named after the fault is enough to prove that it does replace California. If it was an island off the West Coast, the fault would have to do this:
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Last edited by Neaksy on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Wildcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:02 pm

You cannot replace California and Nevada with San Andreas. It doesn't work that way. Our courts cite Navarette v. California and Peruto v. San Diego County as accepted cases. If you do that, those cases go out the window. That, plus the fact that no matter what you do, San Andreas is and always will be an island. You can still roleplay the travel time being considerable due to the size of the island without having to break the game.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Narc » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:05 pm

@Neaksy
I don't think it's a matter of people not realizing that San Andreas is the mock up version of California. It's due to the simple fact that our map is an island. I think role-playing San Andreas as an island state off the coast of California would be the best way to go locate San Andreas.
Last edited by Narc on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Neaksy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:05 pm

Wildcat wrote:You cannot replace California and Nevada with San Andreas. It doesn't work that way. Our courts cite Navarette v. California and Peruto v. San Diego County as accepted cases. If you do that, those cases go out the window. That, plus the fact that no matter what you do, San Andreas is and always will be an island. You can still roleplay the travel time being considerable due to the size of the island without having to break the game.
They're just name drops and don't have much significance. Those are just small inconsistencies that can be ignored. I made that point elsewhere, but Compton is name dropped in Radio Los Santos, there's a song in GTA IV that's called "New York Groove," and other songs mention California in the game. Those examples don't necessarily mean that those real-life locations exist.
Narc wrote:I don't think it's a matter of people not realizing that San Andreas is the mock up version of California. It's due to the simple fact that our map is an island. I think role-playing San Andreas as an island state off the coast of California would be the best way to go locate San Andreas.
The map is a set of islands to keep the game open-world without having physical boundaries to keep all places accessible to the player. They're natural barriers. It's really not that hard to roleplay SA like I do. In GTA 5, San Fierro and Las Venturas are still in the State of San Andreas, yet the map only consists of Los Santos and Blaine County, for instance. It doesn't mean it's an island at all. (They mention the ocean north of Paleto Bay as being a river, and the east side of the map as being a river too, by Lester as well.) Pretending San Andreas replaces California and Nevada is the easiest and most coherent way to go, much like Vice City replaces Miami, Liberty City replaces New York, Carcer City replaces Philadelphia/Camden etc.

There are many arguments that confirm my research and only two refuting it.
  • The map being an island — which I explained is because of Rockstar's ambition to keep the map open and accessible to the players without any limits, and references throughout the universes proving and the list above that confirm that those locations replace real-life ones. Counter-arguments:
    • The fault line in San Fierro Bay, which can only be present if SA overwrites California
    • Some locations referenced IG but are not rendered/modelled anywhere
    • The fact that 24 minutes IRL equals to a day IG
    • Estimated population in rural cities showing high values for such small cities
  • The fact that some elements in our RP reference California etc — which I explained are not a big deal, plus, either way, could be retconned if it's such an issue, which is bound to happen if we set an official stance and lore for LS-RP as people have different opinions. Counter-arguments:
    • Compton is mentioned in Radio Los Santos, which is a mistake, and doesn't mean it exists IG
We should go with the most coherent canon. The reasoning behind the islands-theory is just too weak and really only is argued because people roleplay it that way, LS-RP is set in a fictional universe with its own history and differences with the real world, it's not supposed to replicate it and adding San Andreas to it. Plus, it's just easier to use the material that Rockstar has already created, such as the state's history, or its official flag:

Image

The history of San Andreas would be like California's but with small differences.
  • Los Santos was founded on September 4, 1781, under the Spanish Empire.
  • The State of San Andreas could have been founded on September 9, 1850. (unconfirmed)
  • 1992 Los Santos Riots (after the events of GTA SA) happened between April 29 and May 4, 1992.
For the SASD, we can keep 2008. Reason would be that the depopulation of San Fierro and Las Venturas made it almost useless to keep the LVPD and SFPD, thus having a single agency deal with law enforcement in the rest of the State of San Andreas would make sense, while LSPD deals with the most populous [and the only populated major] city, being Los Santos.

As for the actual population of San Andreas, it can be argued, and honestly I'd be fine with either solution. There could have been a huge economic crisis in San Andreas anywhere from 1992 to 2008 which led to people migrating away from the State and left San Andreas to other locations, or the population is still of 3,000,000 in Los Santos, and so on, the equivalent of real-life cities. I think that the former would make more sense, it would explain a lack of citizens, different traffic laws, and a different economy and politics as well, obviously it would require some creativity while writing the lore, but it would be fun and quite coherent.

And then from 1992 onward, all events being the same as real-life, though while maintaining the 3D/HD universe brands etc. I would also argue that none of the IRL vehicle brands exist on LS-RP and that all vehicles have their IG brands according to the HD universe brands, the list would go as follows:
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  • Sports

    Albany Alpha
    Bravado Banshee
    Bravado Buffalo
    Vapid Bullet
    Grotti Cheetah
    Pfister Comet
    Annis Euros (Annis parodies Nissan)
    Vapid Hotknife
    Pegassi Infernus
    Imponte Phoenix
    Dewbauchee Super GT
    Grotti Turismo
    Annis ZR-350 (Annis parodies Nissan)
    Enus Windsor

    4WD/Utility

    Vapid Bobcat
    Enus Huntley
    Dundreary Landstalker
    Canis Mesa
    Vapid Monster Truck (is not used on LS-RP anyway. I assume it could be Vapid, since the Cheval Marshall is a MT variant of the Picador, and the MT & Picador in GTA SA both look different)
    Mammoth Patriot
    Cheval Picador
    Declasse Rancher
    Vapid Sadler
    Vapid Sandking
    Declasse Walton (to be assumed)
    Vapid Yosemite (since some Vapid vehicles are based on GMCs)

    Lowriders

    Vapid Blade
    Declasse Broadway (to be assumed)
    Vapid Remington (the vehicle it is based on is, IRL (Lincoln), a subcompany of Ford)
    Declasse Savanna (to be assumed)
    Vapid Slamvan
    Declasse Tahoma (to be assumed)
    Declasse Tornado
    Declasse Voodoo

    Tuners

    Annis Elegy
    Annis Flash (to be assumed, as based on Nissan/Honda)
    Dinka Jester
    Zirconium Stratum
    Karin Sultan
    Karin Uranus (to be assumed, as based on Mitsubishi/Toyota. In GTA 4, it is Vapid, but because it was redesigned)

    Vans

    Brute Pony (Berkley's RC Van)
    Declasse Burrito
    Bravado Hotdog (to be assumed, since Bravado is based on Dodge primarly)
    Declasse Moonbeam
    Brute Mr Whoopee (since it resembles the Boxville)
    Declasse Newsvan (it slightly resembles the Burrito)
    Brute Pony
    Bravado Rumpo
    Brute Securicar

    Industrial

    Vapid Benson
    Brute Boxville
    DUDE Cement Truck
    Combine Harvester (no idea, and it does not really matter)
    Karin DFT-30 (to be assumed, definitely looks more like the Mitsubishi it could be based on)
    DUDE Dozer
    DUDE Dumper
    MTL Flatbed
    HVY Forklift
    MTL Linerunner (it might be Jobuilt, but this is the 3D Universe, and it'd make it easier)
    Maibatsu Corporation Mule
    MTL Packer
    MTL Roadtrain (to be assumed)
    MTL Tanker (to be assumed)
    Stanley Tractor
    Vapid Yankee

    Two-door vehicles

    Dinka Blista Compact
    Schyster Bravura (has strong resemblance to a Chrysler model, and this is its GTA 4 equivalent)
    Albany Buccaneer
    Declasse Cadrona (parodies Chevrolet, to be assumed)
    Classique Clover (to be assumed)
    Bürgerfahrzeug Club (to be assumed)
    Albany Esperanto
    Benefactor Feltzer
    Vapid Fortune
    Dundreary Hermes (Since Hermes is the God of Mercury, and Dundreary is based on the manufacturer Mercury, it only makes sense)
    Vapid Hustler
    Willard Majestic (resemblences the Faction, which parodies a Buick)
    Albany Manana
    Dinka Previon
    Declasse Sabre
    Classique Stallion (since based on Oldsmobile in the 3D Universe)
    Declasse Tampa
    Albany Virgo

    Four-door vehicles

    Dundreary Admiral
    Willard Elegant
    Albany Emperor
    Benefactor Glendale
    Schyster Greenwood (if assumed to be based on a Chrysler)
    Karin Intruder
    Declasse Merit
    Willard Nebula
    Bravado Oceanic
    Dinka Perennial
    Declasse Premier
    Albany Primo
    Dundreary Regina
    Albany Romero
    Übermacht Sentinel
    Willard Solair
    Enus Stafford
    Dundreary Stretch
    Declasse Sunrise
    Maibatsu Vincent
    Albany Washington
    Schyster Willard

    Public Service

    HVY Baggage
    Brute Bus
    Cabbie (no idea)
    Brute Coach
    Sweeper
    Declasse Taxi (should be called a Declasse Premier Taxi)
    Vapid Tow Truck (Towtruck)
    Jobuilt Trashmaster
    HVY Tug
    Vapid Utility Van

    Novelty

    BF Bandito (BF is a manufacturer in GTA5, and the Bandito is similar to a Bifta)
    BF Injection (the brand is already in the name)
    Nagasaki Caddy
    BF Camper (the Camper in GTA5 is different. The Surfer is similar to the Camper so I assumed it'd be more appropriate here)
    MTL Dune
    Zirconium Journey
    Kart
    Mothership (it's the BF Camper, but with the paintjob, which are the same vehicles)
    Jacksheepe Mower
    Nagasaki Quad (if assumed the Quad is the Blazer from GTA5)
    Vortex (nowhere on LSRP, and unknown)

    Government

    Brute Ambulance
    HVY Barracks
    Brute Enforcer
    Albany FBI Truck
    Albany FBI Rancher
    MTL Fire Truck
    Nagasaki HPV-1000
    Declasse Police (Declasse Premier but Police variant)
    Declasse Ranger (based on Rancher)
    Rhino
    S.W.A.T.

    Air vehicles

    Andromada
    AT-400
    Beagle
    Western Company Cargobob
    Western Company Cropduster (assumed)
    Mammoth Dodo
    Hunter
    Mammoth Hydra
    Jetpack
    Western Company Leviathan (assumed)
    Mammoth Nevada (assumed)
    Western Company News Chopper (assumed, 2-door version of the Maverick)
    Western Company Maverick
    Western Company Police Maverick
    Parachute (in TBOGT, made by ProLaps, but irrelevant in GTA SA really)
    Western Company Raindance
    Western Company Rustler (assumed)
    Nagasaki Sea Sparrow (assumed, but not important)
    Buckingham Shamal
    Mammoth Skimmer (similar to Dodo, so assumed)
    Nagasaki Sparrow (assumed, not important)
    Western Company Stuntplane (if assumed to be the Mallard, not relevant to LSRP)

    Boats

    Coastguard (not relevant to LSRP)
    Nagasaki Dinghy
    Shitzu Jetmax
    Launch (not relevant to LSRP)
    Dinka Marquis
    Predator (not relevant to LSRP)
    Reefer (unknown)
    Pegassi Speeder
    Shitzu Squalo
    Shitzu Tropic
    Nagasaki BF-400

    Bikes

    Bike
    BMX
    Pegassi Faggio
    Shitzu FCR-900 (assumed)
    Western Motorcycle Company Freeway
    Mountain Bike
    Shitzu NRG-500
    Shitzu PCJ-600
    Pegassi Pizzaboy (Faggio variant)
    Maibatsu Corporation Sanchez
    Western Motorcycle Company Wayfarer
    Benefactor Bloodring Banger (not relevant)
    Hotring Racer (exists in three variants based on different brands and models, and not really relevant either)
Last edited by Neaksy on Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by El Vertido » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:14 pm

You cannot replace California and Nevada with San Andreas. It doesn't work that way. Our courts cite Navarette v. California and Peruto v. San Diego County as accepted cases. If you do that, those cases go out the window
And??? what are these cases anyway? do they affect any of us IG? no. They don't. Why should anyone care that they go out the window?

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This is how I see the state. It makes the most sense to me. I don't really care about the fact that there's "ic court cases" that mention California and Nevada, that's really a personal problem in my opinion, nobody forced you to mention Cali and Nevada in your court case.

San Andreas is a mock of California and should be treated as such, it should be roleplayed as a state replacing California and parts of Nevada with a similar history (Not entirely similar of course)

For example, in our universe the 18th Street gang didn't start in the Pico Union Neighbourhood of Los Angeles, it started in Temple, Los Santos. MS13 didn't start in Rampart in LA, it started in Glen Park and so on.

The map is an island because of the limitations the game had at that time and this should be ignored.

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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Alonzo. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:28 pm

What about the timezone? Sure, we RP somewhere near the West Coast but timezone +1?
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Zuthrex » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:31 pm

SA should be an island like it has always been. As for lore and stuff we should get that old World of Los Santos section back or maybe a wiki to immortalize some of the iconic factions, people, places, and events.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by King Ghali » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:32 pm

Should just leave it as it is, trying to change such a major thing could change things. Either for better or worse.
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Re: Establishing a location and lore for San Andreas

Post by Threadstrong » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:32 pm

El Vertido wrote:
You cannot replace California and Nevada with San Andreas. It doesn't work that way. Our courts cite Navarette v. California and Peruto v. San Diego County as accepted cases. If you do that, those cases go out the window
And??? what are these cases anyway? do they affect any of us IG? no. They don't. Why should anyone care that they go out the window?
They do affect you IG. The SA Courts use them as precedent.

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