Q&A: In-game Rules

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Angles » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:15 am

knppel wrote:Faction management is not ic so there's no rules broken in that. Metagaming would be if you had someone else write the app ic, state in the ooc part your char had a ghostwriter for it, and got denied ic for that.
"Using Out Of Character information In Character (metagaming) is not allowed"

How hard is this to understand? The application is in character and faction management are denying you for that is metagaming.
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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by knppel » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:01 am

Alright for the slow ones: When someone makes his character apply for a faction, any faction with certain standards (and the PD has a load of them, wether you may like them or not) will not only evaluate if your character brings the needed recquirements, but also if the player behind that character can make up to the standards of mentioned faction, however they may be shifted.

When a character gets denied ic'ly, then this is based on a lack in qualification, criminal charges that prevent a certain career, or the simply personal dislike of the guy who did your job interview ic.

If you get faction banned ooc then this happens for fully different reasons. Such as the not that absurd idea that a player who purposely makes his character put in less effort will look even poorer as a cop ingame then (and you might have noticed that amongst all other people PD is not that popular, so they actually try to prevent getting such people on board).

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Angles » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 am

knppel wrote:
If you get faction banned ooc then this happens for fully different reasons. Such as the not that absurd idea that a player who purposely makes his character put in less effort will look even poorer as a cop ingame then (and you might have noticed that amongst all other people PD is not that popular, so they actually try to prevent getting such people on board).
Denying someone for out of character reasons, such as getting yourself another application written by somebody else (only if it's done through in character) well, that's mixing out of character information with in character information, if you're denying him for that. Applications are in character, and as such should be judged on in character merit, not the fact that you got someone else to write up an application (through in character means of course, otherwise it would be metagame, I need to stress this point only if it's done through in character means.) If you're faction banned, what's stopping a person, in character, from joining the pd if he's been banned out of character?

Not to mention the logical fallacy you used at the start.
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Kings and queens rule the land
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Written for the sub-classes to introduce morality
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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by knppel » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:18 am

Angles wrote:
knppel wrote:
Applications are in character,
I think this is why we were talking past each other: Legal factions (that is, I do, and I know the PD does too to stick with the given example) have a certain part of the application in ooc (because obviously no one can roleplay his admin record, just to give an example). Where not your character explains why he should be a cop, but rather why you explain why you would like to play as a police officer.
If that statement starts with "I had write someone else all my ic parts because my char is a lazy ass that will only annoy people when in uniform/being on camera, including his superiors, and never work hard", to put it a bit over the top, chances are the faction has no interest in the player, no matter what fancy background he might have created for his character.

And don't get this last example wrong, I am not saying a creative player could not roleplay a character based on a setting of language troubles, but the attempt to get into a legal or LEO faction. However, this thread is simply the wrong adress for this- each faction, including the PD, has their own recruitment regulations so you'd have to ask them (and as mentioned above, there is an ooc part in the application of the PD too where you would be invited to explain such a background).

There's no basic ooc rules on what is allowed or not in regards of this. It's not breaking any server rules, only faction-specific ones.

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Angles » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:38 am

knppel wrote: If that statement starts with "I had write someone else all my ic parts because my char is a lazy ass that will only annoy people when in uniform/being on camera, including his superiors, and never work hard", to put it a bit over the top, chances are the faction has no interest in the player, no matter what fancy background he might have created for his character.
And that's metagaming, the rule clearly states that you cannot mix out of character information with in character information and or actions. Denying an in character application because of gaining ooc knowledge is infringement.


knppel wrote:There's no basic ooc rules on what is allowed or not in regards of this. It's not breaking any server rules, only faction-specific ones.
Yes there is, it's called metagaming, it's an in character application, it must be handled on in character merit otherwise it infringes the rule. You shall not mix ooc information with ic information, resulting in ic actions, and denying him for getting a ghost rider arranged through in character motive (that's the original discussion point and the contention, let's no stray away from that)then you're infringing the rule, metagaming.
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Kings and queens rule the land
There's more and more lines drawn in the sand
Pawns are crooks, Castles are rooks
It's too bad the good books
Written for the sub-classes to introduce morality
Had nothing to do with reality
But then again, who would have ever read them?
We read the par-Quran for lunch
Eat old testaments for a snack
And a little Lulla-bible before bed

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by knppel » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:43 am

No, it is not. The information is not taken ic, you do not get any in character punishments for being denied a PD app for ooc reasons. Not your character gets banned from applying, you do (no matter on what character).
It's on the very opposite a clear separation between ic and ooc.
On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure your faction leader will have asked you ahead ooc for ck permissions, if I ask people if I can kill them before even trying that's far more borderline meta than banning people for ooc reasons from factions.

I've had one and the same player trying to sneak himself in positions in my faction to then harm it or my char or simply annoy me ooc by trollish behaviour, on no less than five characters in row until I added him on my ucp "friend" list and started to check that on every applicant if it was him with a new name, and that in only 18 months. I can not possibly imagine with how much idiots the PD had to deal over the past years with their amount of members, ex members and salty denied applicants.

and unlike illegal factions who comfortably kill and dump unfit applicants to not have to deal with them anymore, legal factions have to, to an extinct. Hence why in some cases it is sad but needed to prevent players, not just single characters, from membership in a certain faction.

Good day.

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Angles » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:54 am

knppel wrote:No, it is not. The information is not taken ic, you do not get any in character punishments for being denied a PD app for ooc reasons. Not your character gets banned from applying, you do (no matter on what character).
It's on the very opposite a clear separation between ic and ooc.
That's still metagaming. What's preventing one of your other characters from getting accepted? I'll say this once again, metagaming is using out of character for in character. Applications are in character, you're using that ooc information to influence the outcome of an in character application, how hard is that to understand?
knppel wrote: On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure your faction leader will have asked you ahead ooc for ck permissions, if I ask people if I can kill them before even trying that's far more borderline meta than banning people for ooc reasons from factions.
Sure, but I'm not saying I like that whole thing on character kill permissions, it's metagaming.
knppel wrote:I've had one and the same player trying to sneak himself in positions in my faction to then harm it or my char or simply annoy me ooc by trollish behaviour, on no less than five characters in row until I added him on my ucp "friend" list and started to check that on every applicant if it was him with a new name, and that in only 18 months. I can not possibly imagine with how much idiots the PD had to deal over the past years with their amount of members, ex members and salty denied applicants.
Nothing warrants rule breaking.
knppel wrote:and unlike illegal factions who comfortably kill and dump unfit applicants to not have to deal with them anymore, legal factions have to, to an extinct. Hence why in some cases it is sad but needed to prevent players, not just single characters, from membership in a certain faction.

Good day.
Nothing warrants rule breaking, even with factions that kill off members for an out of character dispute.
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Kings and queens rule the land
There's more and more lines drawn in the sand
Pawns are crooks, Castles are rooks
It's too bad the good books
Written for the sub-classes to introduce morality
Had nothing to do with reality
But then again, who would have ever read them?
We read the par-Quran for lunch
Eat old testaments for a snack
And a little Lulla-bible before bed

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Airwolf » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:59 am

They are not LS:RP in-game rules but specific faction rules which are allowed by faction management.

If you can't follow an faction their rules, they usually don't want you there. They don't have to take you either if you're not willing to adhere to faction rules.

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by flchans » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:25 pm

That's a very interesting discussion here. Worthy of making my first post here, for sure.

From my point of view, these so-called "faction rules" represent a different world, a different community, a faction in question. And these, let's face it, have nothing to do both with IG Rules and, sometimes, common RP principles. There are many reasons that would justify this kind of statement, so I shall mention but a few of them:

- "Faction ban". Any player-based ban is automatically against common RP rules, as it basically means that whatever character with whatever background tries to apply for a faction, he automatically gets denied for some unknown reason. You can't ban a person, only a character.

- Transfers and reinstatements. You can't get into a legal faction by any other means but their academy. If you'd like to RP an experienced/veteran representative of the profession, you can do so ONLY if you played there before OOCly by having other character(s). And then, if you were discharged for some IC reason, you can get back and keep ALL your ranks, awards, sub-departments and stuff by just changing your name. That's heavy metagaming and basically nullifyes any point of getting rid of that character - a similar one is going to replace it.

- Discharges. There are discharges for OOC reasons, from "Inactivity" to a server ban, no matter the reason. Again, this has nothing to do with basic roleplay principles.

- Joining requirements. Even the most lenient factions demand some OOC achievements of yours - like having a level 5 character. Otherwise an application gets denied for whatever reasons made up. Well, for metagaming reasons.

This list could go on and on.. but the point is, the factions don't seek employees. They seek players. Players, that are proficient both at English and roleplay, who are able to behave and represent the faction in a best way, so the faction leaders don't get into trouble because of them. And these players are not judged based on their characters' actions either, but OOC characteristics, like their online and their dedication to the faction account. And when a person does something wrong (even if that's just some minor misdemeanor arrest) - they get discharged, no matter what.

Most of these rules are not about role play, they are about common sence. It is easy to understand the reasoning behind whatever faction rules in place. They want their players to know the basics of the profession, to know the rules and abide by them. If we summed up all IG Rules violations caused by faction rules, those would be enough to ban all their leadership forever.

But if the faction rules weren't in place, LS-RP wouldn't have the best thing it has - interesting community-like factions with exciting gameplay.

-------------------

There is one thing worthy of understanding - there's no such thing as a perfect rule, or a rule that would suit each and every situation. Sometimes a person who decides to hire someone ICly to write their essay is much more proficient at everything than people who write them themselves. Sometimes it is not so.

There was one situation about a week ago, that got me really confused. I was in the car with my friend, when we were attacked by some slavic bandits. He got PK'ed and I got wounded. So, technically, my character had to remember the situation, while my friend's had not to. I called my friend and he arrived and picked me up, we went to the hospital and stuff. But there are two things that make this stuation really weird from my pont of view:

1) By the RP logic, if my friend was PK'ed, he would spend some time in hospital, while forgetting who attacked him and stuff. And yet he arrived in a minute, just like the situation didn't involve him at all. Like there was no situation at all.

2) For my character the situation still took place, and I had to RP being with someone else in someone else's car, which is totally weird and makes no sence. It just totally ruins the RP, that ended with my friend's character being shot at.

While this sounds absolutely fine for some, to me it is absolutely clear that most rules are not perfect. They are in place to support that role play atmosphere, which is a very weak substance on its own. It requires much player dedication and admin enforcement to stay alive.
Last edited by flchans on Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Awkx » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:26 pm

Airwolf wrote:They are not LS:RP in-game rules but specific faction rules which are allowed by faction management.

If you can't follow an faction their rules, they usually don't want you there. They don't have to take you either if you're not willing to adhere to faction rules.
Where are these rules written down?

Why do they fly in the face of one of the most basic in-game rules?
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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Junkie. » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:47 pm

Awkx wrote:
Airwolf wrote:They are not LS:RP in-game rules but specific faction rules which are allowed by faction management.

If you can't follow an faction their rules, they usually don't want you there. They don't have to take you either if you're not willing to adhere to faction rules.
Where are these rules written down?

Why do they fly in the face of one of the most basic in-game rules?
No one is allowed to kill someone for OOC reasons, those are basic in game rules.
Faction rules are different world since you are trying to get involved in the community of some people IG, so you have to follow them.
They do not fly into face of IG rules, because every faction still has to obey basic rules.
Every faction has it's own and they are mostly around the faction it self and inbetween the faction.
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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Benavides » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:02 pm

Awkx wrote:
Airwolf wrote:They are not LS:RP in-game rules but specific faction rules which are allowed by faction management.

If you can't follow an faction their rules, they usually don't want you there. They don't have to take you either if you're not willing to adhere to faction rules.
Where are these rules written down?

Why do they fly in the face of one of the most basic in-game rules?
Because each faction has Out of Character rules aswell, for example, officers in Los Santos Police Department are not allowed to be corrupt, even though it's in-character, each faction has their own rules OOC-wise aswell which is acceptable by the administration team, to an extent.
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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Ev0dAK1nG » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:23 pm

Image
Is this mod legal? It comprises of "compass.cs" and "hud.txd" in order to give accurate cardinal directions on your radar.

Saw someone using it on a random LSRP video and it looks useful for someone who struggles with cardinal directions more often than not like myself.

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Socrates » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Ev0-dA-K1nG wrote:Image
Is this mod legal? It comprises of "compass.cs" and "hud.txd" in order to give accurate cardinal directions on your radar.

Saw someone using it on a random LSRP video and it looks useful for someone who struggles with cardinal directions more often than not like myself.
As far as I know, it's fine. Just the cardinal directions, nothing that can actually give you some advantages, we all have the North direction so it's pretty easy to find the rest, but maybe an Admin should answer to this?

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Re: Q&A: In-game Rules

Post by Zupps » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:21 pm

Socrates wrote:
Ev0-dA-K1nG wrote:Image
Is this mod legal? It comprises of "compass.cs" and "hud.txd" in order to give accurate cardinal directions on your radar.

Saw someone using it on a random LSRP video and it looks useful for someone who struggles with cardinal directions more often than not like myself.
As far as I know, it's fine. Just the cardinal directions, nothing that can actually give you some advantages, we all have the North direction so it's pretty easy to find the rest, but maybe an Admin should answer to this?
It looks like it does give an advantage. For one it involves CLEO and then for say if they get in trouble for hacking or related that are probably going to blame it on that. Also some people don't know their North East South West coordinates them they use a mod to help them giving them a advantage especially if they are new to a faction if they require it. I mean I personally remember all the dire tions by Never Eat Soggy Waffles so North East South West. But that's my opinion and I would also know to know if this is allowed.

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