Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by nitraM » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:15 pm

Fergie wrote:
smurph wrote:Its a lot harder to prove then just a simple report This_Cop has harrased me, a simple SS of a cop following you isnt going to do it and they will simply justify their actions (the majority) of the time that its in character. In some instances, yes it is in character and you can tell it is a characters motive, Rashid_Jamal for example is known throughout gangs as being someone who just doesn't fuck around, you look at him the wrong way and he's going to come and search your grandma's house for anything illegal. That I can tolerate. What I do not approve of (and is hard to prove) is the fact that cops will turn around to follow you until you make a mistake, call a felony stop because your character seems suspicious when really its just four black guys in a car and the officer wants something to do because they are bored, and even though its rather obvious how do you prove this? You can /b and they will tell you to stay in character where there is nothing you can do and you are sent of to sacf with no say. Cops should be there to prevent crime, not going around pulling over every Tyrone and his buddy Jamal because they are "behaving suspiciously" and they have "probable cause" to search his vehicle and himself.


Welcome to real life. It's called racial profiling. It happens every day in real life. Seeing a group of 4+ black guys in a vehicle driving slow through a gang related area, yeah it's suspicious. Not as suspicious as seeing 4+ white guys doing the same thing. it's not OOC stalking or harassing to follow a car waiting to see if they do something wrong. Cops do it daily. Where I live, cops can often be found following cars to see if they turn down known drug streets, run stop lights, intersections, waiting for them to speed. Get over it.



I believe 4+ guys in a car is called car pooling in real life not suspicious activity...................
Pulling over a car because it has 4+ people of one race is not called racial profiling its called metagaming based on OOC knowledge of basic server actions. Pulling over a car of 4+ race people who are driving away from a crime scene is racial profiling. Justifying breaking the rules by comparing it to "real life" doesnt make sense If gangs are not allowed to provoke cops shouldn't either.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by KaylaSpace » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:17 pm

NitraM makes a very good point above me about the issue of provocation.

Jarek_Knight wrote:[
The problem, to me, arises when I have to not only defend my actions IC'ly, but also OOC'ly on a constant basis over things that should be handled IC'ly. Such as a search, that in the opinion of the suspect, isn't founded on probable cause.

So what I'm looking at is OOC complaints to me, which turn into IC complaints, which upon failing, then turn into OOC complaints to an admin. And that could lead to OOC intervention, depending on the judgement of one out of several admins, with different points of view.


This I totally get. The going back and forth between "IC" issue and "OOC" issue where the person with an issue will make it either be IC or OOC or go back and forth depending on how it suits their agenda is brutal - People will certainly manipulate the system to do that.
However some things need a degree of OOC involvement, that otherwise in a perfect world would be purely IC, because there is very little legal recourse on LSRP at the moment. With the courts closed those of us who RP lawyers or legal reps cant do anything other then file a report with IA. I'd have more issue with the OOC side of this if the courts were open. Part of what sparked this thread, I believe, is the lack of IC recourse on certain issues.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Jarek_Knight » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 pm

nitraM wrote:
Fergie wrote:
smurph wrote:Its a lot harder to prove then just a simple report This_Cop has harrased me, a simple SS of a cop following you isnt going to do it and they will simply justify their actions (the majority) of the time that its in character. In some instances, yes it is in character and you can tell it is a characters motive, Rashid_Jamal for example is known throughout gangs as being someone who just doesn't fuck around, you look at him the wrong way and he's going to come and search your grandma's house for anything illegal. That I can tolerate. What I do not approve of (and is hard to prove) is the fact that cops will turn around to follow you until you make a mistake, call a felony stop because your character seems suspicious when really its just four black guys in a car and the officer wants something to do because they are bored, and even though its rather obvious how do you prove this? You can /b and they will tell you to stay in character where there is nothing you can do and you are sent of to sacf with no say. Cops should be there to prevent crime, not going around pulling over every Tyrone and his buddy Jamal because they are "behaving suspiciously" and they have "probable cause" to search his vehicle and himself.


Welcome to real life. It's called racial profiling. It happens every day in real life. Seeing a group of 4+ black guys in a vehicle driving slow through a gang related area, yeah it's suspicious. Not as suspicious as seeing 4+ white guys doing the same thing. it's not OOC stalking or harassing to follow a car waiting to see if they do something wrong. Cops do it daily. Where I live, cops can often be found following cars to see if they turn down known drug streets, run stop lights, intersections, waiting for them to speed. Get over it.



I believe 4+ guys in a car is called car pooling in real life not suspicious activity...................
Pulling over a car because it has 4+ people of one race is not called racial profiling its called metagaming based on OOC knowledge of basic server actions. Pulling over a car of 4+ race people who are driving away from a crime scene is racial profiling. Justifying breaking the rules by comparing it to "real life" doesnt make sense If gangs are not allowed to provoke cops shouldn't either.


4 guys of the same race, perhaps wearing the same colors or displaying w/e gang affiliated feats, driving in the same car, taking several slow turns around a gang area, is hardly a car pool. It's something I would call a cause of concern to an officer, providing grounds for further inquiries, be it LSRP or IRL. I don't think an officer is likely to simply admit to having racially profiled a group of people though, acting solely on that aspect.

Though from what I understand, read and saw in documentaries, racial profiling is a necessary evil to identify gangmembers, and gang units make use of it to a certain degree. (Gang related tattoos, colors, hanging out with affiliated individuals of the same race etc, it all helps to narrow down the list of possible suspects.)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, can't see how anyone could label that as provoking.

Flying past a random car on a road such as Mainstreet, spotting 4 guys of same ethnicity and/or somewhat similar names, and then turning around to chase them is a completely different story.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Nathan » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:58 pm

nitraM wrote:I believe 4+ guys in a car is called car pooling in real life not suspicious activity...................
Pulling over a car because it has 4+ people of one race is not called racial profiling its called metagaming based on OOC knowledge of basic server actions. Pulling over a car of 4+ race people who are driving away from a crime scene is racial profiling. Justifying breaking the rules by comparing it to "real life" doesnt make sense If gangs are not allowed to provoke cops shouldn't either.


Doesn't mean to say you report cops for following you. Yes, there's a difference in following a vehicle and turning around to follow a vehicle with 3-4 guys in it.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by KaylaSpace » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:09 pm

The issue is when the following/pursuit and inevitable traffic stop is based on the following:

-Known name tags of criminal RP'ers. I find my main gets followed a little more, by individuals I've never encountered IC, then any one of my alts.
-OOC boredom. I notice I get followed much more often when I log in late at night and the server is quiet then during peak hours.
-The OOC knowledge that most non-LEO's IG are criminal RP'ers, thus even though a character may have doubts IC as to if the individuals they are following are criminal, the OOC knowledge of the fact that they are criminals over-rides whatever effect/actions that IC doubt may have.
-Traffic stops that are CLEARLY an OOC attempt to develop a felony charge, where the cops go beyond reason to try and give themselves probable cause for searches. I know cops flash their light inside a vehicle and inspect it for their own safety but when the first line of text from a officer is "/do Anything illicit/illegal visible inside the vehicle?" instead of "/me unclips their flashlight from their belt and shines it across the front and rear seats, squinting for anything noteworthy" you can tell they're not trying to RP a cautious cop, they're trying to get a felony arrest. To use an example from criminal RP: Its the difference between the drug dealer that just wants sales OOCly and does them even if it doesn't make sense IC and the drug dealer that simply loves to RP a drug dealer and drug deals because they enjoy the role. You can tell the difference in the RP - Spending 30 minutes AFK in a jail-cell (jail not SACF) for a deagle because a cop was bored OOCly is not a treat.
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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by kavinsky » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:28 pm

I believe 4+ guys in a car is called car pooling in real life not suspicious activity...................
Pulling over a car because it has 4+ people of one race is not called racial profiling its called metagaming based on OOC knowledge of basic server actions. Pulling over a car of 4+ race people who are driving away from a crime scene is racial profiling. Justifying breaking the rules by comparing it to "real life" doesnt make sense If gangs are not allowed to provoke cops shouldn't either.


[...] to have reasonable suspicion to stop a vehicle, a police officer must observe behavior or receive information indicating criminal activity. Any traffic infraction suffices to justify pulling a vehicle over. If the police officer already knows that the individuals in [...]


I understand that if you're getting pulled over in calm areas and too many OOC factors are influencing the scene, let's say the obvious one - sultan, 4 occupants, masks - then that's OOC profiling (= metagaming) and should be punished, but if you're riding with your colors, in a hot spot area for crimes and at best shouting your way into it, then that's your own fault.

Of course I'm totally against any bored cop to try to screw with criminals just for the sake of "OOC-lulzness".

Known name tags of criminal RP'ers

That really depends from where you see it. You don't know if a law enforcement officer assembled a case against you, if a warrant is standing out, if you're on a watchlist, if you got reported through 911 for "suspicious activity" (which can be false/boredom 911 calls obviously), etc. I'm unable to provide any solution for the rare cases for this problem since it's a kinda grey-zone and it happens globally around LS:RP.

OOC boredom

Hard to proof, however I can ensure you that if we find out that a law enforcement officer is likely in an OOC fashion following you because he's "bored", then they'll likely end up being suspended or even discharged if this is a repeated offence.

I know cops flash their light inside a vehicle and inspect it for their own safety but when the first line of text from a officer is "/do Anything illicit/illegal visible inside the vehicle?"


I disagree, that's simply copy-pasting bad role-play, and it should be reported to the faction. I understand what you are saying, but in most cases I have seen so far I heard that they have copied other law enforcement officers role-play style rather than giving you a hard time for no reason.

There are many factors which can cause such situations without bad intentions from either, the PD or SD - here the top examples:

- Faulty communication between inter-departments
- False 911 calls (OOC and IC)
- Copy/Pasting bad role-play behavior
- Inability to stay in character from a leo and/or taking situations too serious thus trying to cause the other party damage in any fashion without due reason(s)
- OOC fooling around from your friends which may cause a leo to push his attention onto your clique/group/gang temporary
- OOC boredom
- Hatred (Leo knows the criminal/civilian OOCly and wants to find any way to punish him in any fashion)
- and more

We have a pretty solid quality control in both, the PD and the SD and we are auditing officers the best we can, that doesn't conclude that no leo will cause you troubles for no reason, but you have to give the ones in charge more trust that we are able to deal with the bad apples. You need to report them, even if you think you have nothing on them if you think they put a bad light on the PD or SD. The smallest report may highlight another issue we had in the past and gives us eligible reasons to discipline this officer. In conclusion — trust us more to deal with the issues, and to be realistic that a rarity of officers are bad apples, however with your input we can work on even making this little number even smaller.
Last edited by kavinsky on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Jarek_Knight » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:30 pm

KaylaSpace wrote:The issue is when the following/pursuit and inevitable traffic stop is based on the following:

-Known name tags of criminal RP'ers. I find my main gets followed a little more, by individuals I've never encountered IC, then any one of my alts.

I can see were you're coming from, at the same time I'd like to point out that there are casefiles, along with the names and mugshots of relevant criminals, which can easily be looked up, especially by detectives in the respective division. Implying that said criminal has been involved in anything justifying such attention. That's a possibility, of which I'm sure you're aware of.

Though I'm sure someone has un/intentionally metagamed in these kind of situations, I have no solution for it.

KaylaSpace wrote:-OOC boredom. I notice I get followed much more often when I log in late at night and the server is quiet then during peak hours.

Sure, same happens to me when I drive around masked. This applies to a lot of players, and it is very annoying.

KaylaSpace wrote:-The OOC knowledge that most non-LEO's IG are criminal RP'ers, thus even though a character may have doubts IC as to if the individuals they are following are criminal, the OOC knowledge of the fact that they are criminals over-rides whatever effect/actions that IC doubt may have.

I believe it's difficult to draw a line here, any player will take OOC thoughts into account with his character. Often it happens unintentionally, sometimes not so much. Again, I have no solution, and it's very difficult to determine what's what imo.

I for example often find it awkward when I pull up to an area from were a 911 call came, and I happen to see the callers nametag. Would my character now stop, and ask whether he's the caller, or would he continue doing rounds until he gets flagged down? That's just one, simple example though.

KaylaSpace wrote:-Traffic stops that are CLEARLY an OOC attempt to develop a felony charge, where the cops go beyond reason to try and give themselves probable cause for searches. I know cops flash their light inside a vehicle and inspect it for their own safety but when the first line of text from a officer is "/do Anything illicit/illegal visible inside the vehicle?" instead of "/me unclips their flashlight from their belt and shines it across the front and rear seats, squinting for anything noteworthy" you can tell they're not trying to RP a cautious cop, they're trying to get a felony arrest. To use an example from criminal RP: Its the difference between the drug dealer that just wants sales OOCly and does them even if it doesn't make sense IC and the drug dealer that simply loves to RP a drug dealer and drug deals because they enjoy the role. You can tell the difference in the RP - Spending 30 minutes AFK in a jail-cell (jail not SACF) for a deagle because a cop was bored OOCly is not a treat.


Agreed, I don't like it either when I see something like that. "/me takes his flashlight, shining it into the Vehicle.", "/DO can i see drugs, weapons etc?"

It comes down to how you roleplay it, I'd say. All parties have to put in effort, to make it as enjoyable and natural as possible. I wouldn't go as far as saying: sugarcoat the roleplay, but leaving the other party a choice in how he wants to roleplay his side of things is a good start. Sometimes players are a little unresponsive, and LEO rpers have to be a little more direct, maybe a little pushy even, as in asking repeatedly if no answer is provided. I could picture cops becoming less sensitive after a while, cutting to the chase, which could in return lead the other roleplayer lead to believe that there's MG involved, or that the officer has a rushing attitude. At the same time I can see miscommunications being the source of the problem.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by LIWE » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:39 am

Fergie wrote:
smurph wrote:Its a lot harder to prove then just a simple report This_Cop has harrased me, a simple SS of a cop following you isnt going to do it and they will simply justify their actions (the majority) of the time that its in character. In some instances, yes it is in character and you can tell it is a characters motive, Rashid_Jamal for example is known throughout gangs as being someone who just doesn't fuck around, you look at him the wrong way and he's going to come and search your grandma's house for anything illegal. That I can tolerate. What I do not approve of (and is hard to prove) is the fact that cops will turn around to follow you until you make a mistake, call a felony stop because your character seems suspicious when really its just four black guys in a car and the officer wants something to do because they are bored, and even though its rather obvious how do you prove this? You can /b and they will tell you to stay in character where there is nothing you can do and you are sent of to sacf with no say. Cops should be there to prevent crime, not going around pulling over every Tyrone and his buddy Jamal because they are "behaving suspiciously" and they have "probable cause" to search his vehicle and himself.


Welcome to real life. It's called racial profiling. It happens every day in real life. Seeing a group of 4+ black guys in a vehicle driving slow through a gang related area, yeah it's suspicious. Not as suspicious as seeing 4+ white guys doing the same thing. it's not OOC stalking or harassing to follow a car waiting to see if they do something wrong. Cops do it daily. Where I live, cops can often be found following cars to see if they turn down known drug streets, run stop lights, intersections, waiting for them to speed. Get over it.


Get real noob. Doesen't happen at all. I don't know where you live, maybe a cave in azerbadjan or something? Where I live cops can't follow people for "acting suspicious". As you're saying, just because there's a few black guys driving in a car doesen't mean they get followed, moron.
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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by jonesyrhys96 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:47 am

LIWE wrote:
Fergie wrote:
smurph wrote:Its a lot harder to prove then just a simple report This_Cop has harrased me, a simple SS of a cop following you isnt going to do it and they will simply justify their actions (the majority) of the time that its in character. In some instances, yes it is in character and you can tell it is a characters motive, Rashid_Jamal for example is known throughout gangs as being someone who just doesn't fuck around, you look at him the wrong way and he's going to come and search your grandma's house for anything illegal. That I can tolerate. What I do not approve of (and is hard to prove) is the fact that cops will turn around to follow you until you make a mistake, call a felony stop because your character seems suspicious when really its just four black guys in a car and the officer wants something to do because they are bored, and even though its rather obvious how do you prove this? You can /b and they will tell you to stay in character where there is nothing you can do and you are sent of to sacf with no say. Cops should be there to prevent crime, not going around pulling over every Tyrone and his buddy Jamal because they are "behaving suspiciously" and they have "probable cause" to search his vehicle and himself.


Welcome to real life. It's called racial profiling. It happens every day in real life. Seeing a group of 4+ black guys in a vehicle driving slow through a gang related area, yeah it's suspicious. Not as suspicious as seeing 4+ white guys doing the same thing. it's not OOC stalking or harassing to follow a car waiting to see if they do something wrong. Cops do it daily. Where I live, cops can often be found following cars to see if they turn down known drug streets, run stop lights, intersections, waiting for them to speed. Get over it.


Get real noob. Doesen't happen at all. I don't know where you live, maybe a cave in azerbadjan or something? Where I live cops can't follow people for "acting suspicious". As you're saying, just because there's a few black guys driving in a car doesen't mean they get followed, moron.


Wow you're extremely rude. And just to say, if cops can't follow someone for acting suspicious where you live, then maybe it's you living in a cave in Azerbaijan...maybe?

Anyhow, besides the point. Just reference UK law here, which american law is similar to more than you think, under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1986 everything is based off "reasonable grounds for suspicion". Therefore, acting suspiciously allows an officer to check up on it...How else would crime be solved. 99 per cent sure it's the same in the US.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Pichu » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:30 am

Exactly, like people may act nervous around cops, make sudden turns etc and more often than not when cops investigate it usually end sup in uncovering more stuff, here in the UK mostly drugs, drink drivers, uninsured rivers and so on and so on and yes, cops will often look around known areas for trouble or suspicious behavior. One of the first things cops will also do, is check around inside the vehicle visually and particularly via smell. Many well trained and experienced cops, will know if something is off fairly quickly.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Dustball. » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 am

I don't see an issue with following a vehicle. Cops usually tail a car a few blocks to see if they're breaking any moving violations, seeing anything suspicious, and will pull you over if you break a misdemeanor B or above which usually means moving violations like running traffic control devices (lights/stop signs/speed traps) or perform a road infraction. This is a game and tend to use my OOC/IC knowledge of law enforcement but understand as a veteran player to be fair with criminals/civilians.

Discretion plays a HUGE role in this. A majority of the players who are criminals, and are packed with people with guns need to understand that shooting at every stop isn't going to help your cause. It'll just fuel the ongoing war against LEO's. And for cops, don't just suddenly for NO lawful reason pull someone over because it won't be IA disciplining you, it'll be the justice system.

I see the DOJ as the problem fixer. It'll balance the ratio and start empowering everyone. The LEO's with a fully functional legal system that will incorporate them, the civilians who will have a chance to role-play so much and criminals, which will have an opportunity to experience the courts, their defense and the state who will seek to punish them.

LEO's will no longer be the one sides judge juror and executioner. Again. For those who took a second to read any of my posts will understand I am probably the most straight forward and unbiased person here. I'm here to help the general populous. That's my opinion on this little sub thread going on here ;p

If you're lazy and didn't read: Nothing wrong with lawful pullovers, shame on you po-po's who break rules/laws/protocols to catch a bad guy. And criminals don't feed them. Report accordingly and be fair with your RP as-well.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Greedy » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:47 am

This was well needed, police seems to have completely control over Los Santos, and now we can atleast limit their actions. Most complaints seem to be coming from PD, who don't want to be limited but that's how we felt when they said factions could be descripted from ACU files. However, if a suspect is in a known gang hangout, or drug corner, PD should automatically have the liberty and probable cause to search someone on that pretense, however it shouldn't just be a stranger simply walking or something.
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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Fergie » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:36 am

Greedy wrote:However, if a suspect is in a known gang hangout, or drug corner, PD should automatically have the liberty and probable cause to search someone on that pretense, however it shouldn't just be a stranger simply walking or something.


Exactly. If there are LEO's who just stop random people for no reason to search them, they should be punished ICly, and possibly OOCly if metagaming was involved. I don't get why some people randomly stop others and search them for no reason. Now, to be fair, if I am on patrol and I see someone coming out of a house that I've raided before during a SWAT situation where we seized a ton of drugs/drug dealers, then yes, I'll probably pull you over and talk with you and possibly search you if you act suspicious and nervous. Same goes with if I see two people on a known drug corner shaking hands/exchanging anything in a hand-to-hand transaction, then yes. I'll stop you. But other than that, there's really not a big reason to just stop people walking down the road.

Now I will be the first to admit I follow vehicle, but as Dusty said above, it's not because you have a name tag I recognize, it's because when I am in a cruiser, I'm on beat-duty. I'll watch you to see if you break the law while driving. I'll run your plates and check the vehicle owners name (Note, not the driver, the vehicle owner). If you pull over to the side of the road without being told to do so, yes, I'll come talk with you. But 9 times out of 10 if you act cool and just drive normal, then we have no problems and I let you be.

People seem to think every time they get followed by a cop it's some form of OOC boredom or MG, when I promise you 99.9% of the time it's just a cop, realistically portraying how a beat-cop be.
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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by jonesyrhys96 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:52 am

Fergie wrote:Exactly. If there are LEO's who just stop random people for no reason to search them, they should be punished ICly, and possibly OOCly if metagaming was involved.


I just wanted to say, that I was in PD for around a year and when I was a Sergeant, I was never called to a situation where an officer had stop and searched people for no reason. In my year there, I actually saw that a lot of officers take the effort to find a reason to stop and search someone, which is perfectly fine.

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Re: Peace Officer misconduct (Report PD/SD)

Post by Ferdinand » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:52 pm

Fergie wrote:If you pull over to the side of the road without being told to do so, yes, I'll come talk with you.

Note that people pull over for OOC reasons. Given that I can't type as I drive, it's more sensible to pull over to write a /pm than to stop in the middle of the road, exposing myself, block traffic or similar.

Talking whilst in a car is the same. If there are 4 people in a car and they converse while cruising, it makes sense for the driver to pull over while writing his line, so as not to disturb traffic or cause other IC implications. Such pulling over is purely OOC due game mechanics which make it impossible to type while driving. My only point is, not everything revolves around you and if a car in front of you pulls over, it can be purely OOC, which throws any probable cause out of the window.

If on the other hand you just talk to people doing so, that's another pair of shoes and is perfectly alright, as you can't be sure if they did it for IC or OOC reasons.

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