Detective PK update.

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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Mick & Son II » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:04 pm

Regardless to that rule, detectives tend to believe due to those rules that they're untouchable therefore they are going to provoke you in any sort of a way when it comes to their investigation, however it's problematic for factions to stand while detectives are provoking, most real life detectives tend to give criminials respect due to the fear of their own sake.

I believe that the new rule should aim for more difficluties to the detective instead of giving them the proper defenses of acting as they intend to do, sometimes they simply intend to be so blunt in their behavior simply because they're being OOCly defended by the admins or the teamspeak usage of the so called 'Radio'.

Detectives require more challenges rather than privilages because it's a hard life they're chosing inorder to protect their town.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Thuggy » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:52 pm

I don't like the idea of detectives being able to continue where they left off a month ago. There's no counter-measurements to getting shut down, except playing really passively. Police Department has tonnes of advantages (armor, back-up via VOIP, shit load of guns and so on), so if they rightfully get killed while slipping, they should be removed from the casefile indefinitely. A shut down isn't anything light, it's a forceful disbandment of several characters that have developed together over a period of months, even years sometimes. I still agree with needing to get permission from HoF so it doesn't end up with people killing every detective in sight. You would still need to have a good reason and motive behind the killing. Overall a nice addition, just hoping to see the time limit changing one day!
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Panorama Harem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:24 pm

Thuggy wrote:I don't like the idea of detectives being able to continue where they left off a month ago. There's no counter-measurements to getting shut down, except playing really passively. Police Department has tonnes of advantages (armor, back-up via VOIP, shit load of guns and so on), so if they rightfully get killed while slipping, they should be removed from the casefile indefinitely. A shut down isn't anything light, it's a forceful disbandment of several characters that have developed together over a period of months, even years sometimes. I still agree with needing to get permission from HoF so it doesn't end up with people killing every detective in sight. You would still need to have a good reason and motive behind the killing. Overall a nice addition, just hoping to see the time limit changing one day!
Pretty muched summed it all up.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Jayke » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:37 pm

Panorama Harem wrote:
Thuggy wrote:I don't like the idea of detectives being able to continue where they left off a month ago. There's no counter-measurements to getting shut down, except playing really passively. Police Department has tonnes of advantages (armor, back-up via VOIP, shit load of guns and so on), so if they rightfully get killed while slipping, they should be removed from the casefile indefinitely. A shut down isn't anything light, it's a forceful disbandment of several characters that have developed together over a period of months, even years sometimes. I still agree with needing to get permission from HoF so it doesn't end up with people killing every detective in sight. You would still need to have a good reason and motive behind the killing. Overall a nice addition, just hoping to see the time limit changing one day!
Pretty muched summed it all up.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Foster161 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:58 pm

That's very shallow to demand a killed detective to never return to a casefile, thus forbid his roleplay, but if you get killed by us, you continue to roleplay with your character as nothing happened.


After all those years, people still don't know that we are not killjoy faction-takedown hungry detectives (at least not me and my unit), but are doing it to counter the crime rate of a said organization and it's influence to community (e.g. tackle weapon/narcotics flow).


I believe in equality, politeness and respect, thus I have nothing against fair play and counter measurements against "takedowns", fair game for all, but imagining - for example - someone gets to know my persona would attempt to assassinate me for countless times, getting himself killed in the process and just rinsing and repeating with no consequences is revolting.


I am interested in your opinions & arguments.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by King » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:09 pm

I see what you guys mean, but what Chete is saying that their entire memory would be wiped, therefore the only knowledge they can build off is what their co-workers have given them or they have to work from scratch. If you think about it though, if you manage to establish every one investigation your faction and take them all out within the month, surely that'd mean the members wouldn't know that you're an organisation and should have no intelligence on you? Though some could argue that they could just pick up the current casefile in process, but I think that'd defeat the purpose of it all.

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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Thuggy » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:11 pm

I don't know how it's 'shallow'? Yes, you're unable to return to the case file. That is not a big deal compared to people getting CKed, life imprisonment and the general idea of a full on faction disbandment. Be preemptive when staking/gathering intel, don't put yourself out there. It's all about fairness and having something to counter measure a take down. I'd rather this than to kill the same detective every month.
But if you get killed by us, you continue to roleplay with your character as nothing happened.
I believe in equality, politeness and respect, thus I have nothing against fair play and counter measurements against "takedowns", fair game for all, but imagining - for example - someone gets to know my persona would attempt to assassinate me for countless times, getting himself killed in the process and just rinsing and repeating with no consequences is revolting
.
If a hit fails, you could use that against the faction, can you not? Another felony to use in your case file against said faction. If that's not the way it works, it's definitely something that should be looked into. And you're forgetting about the fact you need to ask for permission from Faction Management, so you won't have to worry about someone trying to assassinate you several times over even after death.
King wrote:I see what you guys mean, but what Chete is saying that their entire memory would be wiped, therefore the only knowledge they can build off is what their co-workers have given them or they have to work from scratch. If you think about it though, if you manage to establish every one investigation your faction and take them all out within the month, surely that'd mean the members wouldn't know that you're an organisation and should have no intelligence on you? Though some could argue that they could just pick up the current casefile in process, but I think that'd defeat the purpose of it all.
Seeing how everything gets documented by the GNU, I'm not sure if the whole "memory gets wiped" thing is even relevant. I don't know if the PD has any internal rules on it, but like you said, couldn't GNU just get updated by his or her colleagues and be right back where they started? The only thing they'd lose is information they themselves only knew, which would only be in those rare cases where you catch a detective seeing you do something and they haven't documented it down yet.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Foster161 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 pm

I was coming from my own experience, people camping our detective building with occupied sedans, in monthly cycles, repeatedly. Evolving into a detective having no assignments to work on, getting no roleplay, activity and fear/face demotion in the department.

The more you will kill the more you will be under pressure, restoring the cycle of casefile/police heat on your organization, and I can see that if this scenario would happen (speaking with no regard of the past now), detectives will rather CK themselves than face the 1 month absence.



Bear in mind, I am not complaining, nor suggesting anything better. I believe the time of one month is fair in many terms, but I want to avoid either side to resort to unrealistic measures of murdering (provoking / stalling from cops' side) in the progress of both a) faction wise b) police casefile wise -development.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Ulysses » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:21 pm

The Old World Mafia Boss wrote:
LondonSoldier wrote:
The Old World Mafia Boss wrote:Isn’t a 1-month time frame too short of a period?
Casefiles I've been involved in have lasted up to around 3-4 months, so not really.
The fact that a 3-4-month case file has the power of shutting down more than a year lasting faction proves the point that law enforcement factions are at a great advantage.
No, it just proves that the illegal faction can't keep a low profile at all. We do not fabricate incidents, charges are stacked up every time a crime is carried out by members of the illegal factions and in the end the amount and seriousness of crimes combined lead to the faction takedown. If people enjoy turning their turf into a war zone, they shouldn't complain about the takedown then. So, yeah, in the end the responsibility of a faction takedown falls on the members of the illegal faction themselves, not on the legal factions detectives.
Balkan Beast wrote:They must wait so that the person can go publish everything in the casefile before killing..?
What about when the person gets caught during surveillance with no back up and has evidence? He gets let go to go post it later?
People usually do not report incidents where they were PK'd, regardless of the fact they're detective or not.
Aeon wrote:DOC has their own faction-imposed (as far as I can remember- they've usually taken CKs when killed but when this was discussed back when I was heavily involved in ISU, we said that this would be the case) rule of an ISU investigator being PKed can then never again on that same character continue investigating the faction that killed them. DOC doesn't have access to the State Agent job or any of the scriptwise advantages that detectives usually have access to in PD/SD and yet still they're able to function perfectly with PKed investigators never being allowed to go back to work on that case.DOC's also a lot, lot smaller of a faction, with less investigators than either PD or SD.
How many gangs has DOC to deal with? Two, three? I've got 17 people in the gang detail and I can hardly keep track of four gangs. We have an average of three reported incidents per day, which is basically nothing compared to the amount of stuff that happens everyday on LS:RP, and most reports do not bring any valuable intelligence. A lot of incidents go undocumented simply because there's not enough people interested in investigating gang activity, or writing a report. Now: GND has even less members than my detail. So if you start to pick off those who are interested because they are investigating, soon enough the PD won't have a gang unit at all.
Thuggy wrote:I don't know how it's 'shallow'? Yes, you're unable to return to the case file. That is not a big deal compared to people getting CKed, life imprisonment and the general idea of a full on faction disbandment. Be preemptive when staking/gathering intel, don't put yourself out there. It's all about fairness and having something to counter measure a take down. I'd rather this than to kill the same detective every month.
I don't know where all this fuss about the faction take down comes from. There is nothing in the takedown rules saying that criminal characters involved in the takedown are to be character killed or imprisoned for life. Just for clarification, the takedown rules clearly explicit that, in addition to the fact that taken out characters can simply be resumed after four weeks, the faction itself can (and I'll quote, see for yourself if you don't believe it) " 'restart' as the faction they were prior to the successful attempt if its leadership wishes to.". Also, a faction takedown happens because its members were not smart enough to not get caught doing illegal stuff. There are plenty of successful illegal factions that have never been identified by law enforcement due to their careful behaviour. You can't expect us to witness gang shootings with automatic rifles and turn our head the other way just because of "fear".
Foster161 wrote:detectives will rather CK themselves than face the 1 month absence.
Even if the detective CK's their character, they won't be able to resume investigation on the same casefile before a month has passed. They will be simply assigned to another casefile.


tl;dr: one month is fine.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Foster161 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:26 pm

Ulysses wrote:Even if the detective CK's their character
I know the rules, I was referring to someone's idea of Character Kill over 1 month wait.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Thuggy » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:31 pm

I don't know where all this fuss about the faction take down comes from. There is nothing in the takedown rules saying that criminal characters involved in the takedown are to be character killed or imprisoned for life. Just for clarification, the takedown rules clearly explicit that, in addition to the fact that taken out characters can simply be resumed after four weeks, the faction itself can (and I'll quote, see for yourself if you don't believe it) " 'restart' as the faction they were prior to the successful attempt if its leadership wishes to.". Also, a faction takedown happens because its members were not smart enough to not get caught doing illegal stuff. There are plenty of successful illegal factions that have never been identified by law enforcement due to their careful behaviour. You can't expect us to witness gang shootings with automatic rifles and turn our head the other way just because of "fear".
Characters who get slapped with a long rap sheet can and will be serving a life imprisonment, and I'd know since I've been involved in official take-downs. I'm well aware of the ins and out of take-downs rule-wise and on paper it all looks very nice but you're forgetting about several things...

1) During those four weeks, a lot can happen. People move on and people develop new characters. Do you expect them to do nothing but wait for the four weeks to end? Some people really immerse themselves into their characters therefore it's quite hard to break off. Disbanding a group of people has consequences. I have yet to see a faction who remains intact after a take down, because simply, it's not plausible.
2) Turf issues. Once a faction is shut down, it ceases to exist. The turf is free for grabs, and once those four weeks are over, the previous faction who resided in that turf has no where to go. This is also an issue.

I don't really understand the relevance of this:
You can't expect us to witness gang shootings with automatic rifles and turn our head the other way just because of "fear".
I never said or implied that it should be that way. Be pre-emptive in your staking/intel gathering as in don't get caught out, position yourself, don't be blatant about what you're doing and you're fine. Dying by getting involved in gang-warfare has nothing to do with this, because FM permission would still be needed so just because you died by their hands (and coincidentally you're investigating them) doesn't mean you're off the case. It's only if FM has reviewed and granted the kill permission.

It's pretty obvious we've got two different opinions regarding this, and it's the usual criminal v PD clash. I respect your opinion, but I still stand by mine.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Nick. » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:08 pm

Ulysses wrote:How many gangs has DOC to deal with? Two, three? I've got 17 people in the gang detail and I can hardly keep track of four gangs. We have an average of three reported incidents per day, which is basically nothing compared to the amount of stuff that happens everyday on LS:RP, and most reports do not bring any valuable intelligence. A lot of incidents go undocumented simply because there's not enough people interested in investigating gang activity, or writing a report. Now: GND has even less members than my detail. So if you start to pick off those who are interested because they are investigating, soon enough the PD won't have a gang unit at all.
Your detail = 17/4 = 4.25 per case.
ISU = 10/3 = 3.3 recurring per case.

Your detail is at an advantage compared to DOC ISU in every single way. Script wise advantages, that goes to PD (State Agent or whatever), you also have more people per case. If the DOC can do it, you have absolutely no excuse.

Not only that but this is just your detail. In times of desperate needs, other detectives could be rushed in from SD, or from other details if it were really necessary. On top of that, not all of ISU's members are even in the STG investigations detail, so that value of 10 is actually even smaller. Now tell me the reason why you can't be off the case forever?

The thing is, that you wouldn't struggle at all, we can demonstrate that using other areas of LS-RP. I can appreciate and respect why you think you might, but the evidence is that you're in a great position. Detectives getting killed should also be considered an IC issue, so yes- feasibly you might have IC shortages.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Ulysses » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:46 pm

Thuggy wrote:Characters who get slapped with a long rap sheet can and will be serving a life imprisonment, and I'd know since I've been involved in official take-downs. I'm well aware of the ins and out of take-downs rule-wise and on paper it all looks very nice but you're forgetting about several things...
Well, I didn't make the rules, I'm just quoting them as they are written in the section. If you ask me, the whole faction takedown system could use a revamp in order to make it both more realistic and somehow more balanced, but that's a completely different discussion I'm not going to talk about here.
Thuggy wrote:1) During those four weeks, a lot can happen. People move on and people develop new characters. Do you expect them to do nothing but wait for the four weeks to end? Some people really immerse themselves into their characters therefore it's quite hard to break off. Disbanding a group of people has consequences. I have yet to see a faction who remains intact after a take down, because simply, it's not plausible.
Illegal factions members whose faction has been taken down can decide to fully roleplay their character to the end by spending those four weeks in SACF instead of developing a new one. It's the consequences you were talking about, yet I rarely saw someone roleplaying the consequences of a faction take down. What I mean is that it's a player's choice, not a server rule; on the other hand, forcing detectives to be pulled of a casefile permanently would represent quite a big imbalance.
Thuggy wrote:2) Turf issues. Once a faction is shut down, it ceases to exist. The turf is free for grabs, and once those four weeks are over, the previous faction who resided in that turf has no where to go. This is also an issue.
I get your point. The two rules obviously conflict each other, since an old gang in a completely new turf would make no sense. But it's something that it should be taken care of by FM.
Thuggy wrote:I never said or implied that it should be that way. Be pre-emptive in your staking/intel gathering as in don't get caught out, position yourself, don't be blatant about what you're doing and you're fine. Dying by getting involved in gang-warfare has nothing to do with this, because FM permission would still be needed so just because you died by their hands (and coincidentally you're investigating them) doesn't mean you're off the case. It's only if FM has reviewed and granted the kill permission.
My sentence was a bit out of context. A lot of people in this topic complain about the fact that detectives fail to roleplay fear and that a stricter rule would make them more fearsome, yet everyday we have to face players whose characters do not care at all about killing police officers in front of a police station in broad daylight for taking pictures of graffiti (it's something that has happened to a member of the LSPD, so I'm not making assumptions).
Thuggy wrote:It's pretty obvious we've got two different opinions regarding this, and it's the usual criminal v PD clash. I respect your opinion, but I still stand by mine.
It's fine, I've never had the intention of convincing I'm right and you're wrong to begin with. I just wanted to voice my opinion being a former detective myself.
Aeon wrote: Your detail = 17/4 = 4.25 per case.
ISU = 10/3 = 3.3 recurring per case.

Your detail is at an advantage compared to DOC ISU in every single way. Script wise advantages, that goes to PD (State Agent or whatever), you also have more people per case. If the DOC can do it, you have absolutely no excuse.
My detail investigates way more than four gangs, and does not have any script advantage. We can not trace numbers, we can not do surveillance over gang members, we can not place trackers/moles (which, by the way, require an actual court order to be allowed) and we can not defer charges, which is basically the main concept behind a gang takedown. We are patrol officers, most of which have double or even triple assignments in other divisions. We are not at an advantage at all.
Aeon wrote:Not only that but this is just your detail. In times of desperate needs, other detectives could be rushed in from SD, or from other details if it were really necessary. On top of that, not all of ISU's members are even in the STG investigations detail, so that value of 10 is actually even smaller. Now tell me the reason why you can't be off the case forever?
For the simple reason that it doesn't work like that. As I said, my detail is composed of uniformed officers, I'm an uni myself. The number of fully qualified detectives within the PD is an all-time low, as it usually is by this time of the year. And anyways detectives can't be shipped from SD to PD and back because it's a whole different system, and I'm not going to bother you with all the technicalities since I'm not really sure I'm even allowed to do so. It just wouldn't be fair for those who worked hard to acquire that position to get replaced by someone who's from a different agency.
Aeon wrote:The thing is, that you wouldn't struggle at all, we can demonstrate that using other areas of LS-RP. I can appreciate and respect why you think you might, but the evidence is that you're in a great position. Detectives getting killed should also be considered an IC issue, so yes- feasibly you might have IC shortages.
From my point of view, we are struggling right now. Again, I don't wish to prove that I'm absolutely right while you're absolutely wrong. I'm just saying that things are pretty different seen from inside one of the two factions affected by the rule. Nevertheless, I can see where you're coming from and, of course, I respect your opinion as well.

tl;dr: a month is still fine.
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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by Ash. » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:53 am

WHen 99.9% of gangsters don't rambo 20 cops to avoid casefile charges in 99.9% of situations then we can talk about perma-pks from casefiles.

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Re: Detective PK update.

Post by .:Zeus:. » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:08 am

Ash. wrote:WHen 99.9% of gangsters don't rambo 20 cops to avoid casefile charges in 99.9% of situations then we can talk about perma-pks from casefiles.
Dont turn this into a Cops vs Criminals thread because trust me you will not win.
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