Detective Job Revision — Release

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Pro Se » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:39 pm

Fantastic.

Thank you for the info and timely response Otter, its much appreciated.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Alonzo. » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:46 pm

otter. wrote: I understand that there people are eager for this to open up publicly and I am all for promoting more role-play surrounding investigations, but following release - I realised that before opening it up fully, I needed to give it a bit of time to see how well certain features worked and what kind of adaptations need to be made for it to be ueed on a wider scale.

Without setting another "deadline", I do hope to have this opened up within the next week or two.
Until then there is no way for illegal organizations to counter the moles and police surveillance.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by otter » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:48 pm

Alonzo. wrote:
otter. wrote: I understand that there people are eager for this to open up publicly and I am all for promoting more role-play surrounding investigations, but following release - I realised that before opening it up fully, I needed to give it a bit of time to see how well certain features worked and what kind of adaptations need to be made for it to be ueed on a wider scale.

Without setting another "deadline", I do hope to have this opened up within the next week or two.
Until then there is no way for illegal organizations to counter the moles and police surveillance.
How so?

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Alonzo. » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:55 pm

otter. wrote:
Alonzo. wrote:
otter. wrote: I understand that there people are eager for this to open up publicly and I am all for promoting more role-play surrounding investigations, but following release - I realised that before opening it up fully, I needed to give it a bit of time to see how well certain features worked and what kind of adaptations need to be made for it to be ueed on a wider scale.

Without setting another "deadline", I do hope to have this opened up within the next week or two.
Until then there is no way for illegal organizations to counter the moles and police surveillance.
How so?
Police can have moles in businesses, on players and with no independent contractor for illegal organizations to hire for help, what you gonna do? Stay outside the houses/businesses to speak. Or does /devicecheck not existent anymore?

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by otter » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:16 pm

Alonzo. wrote:Police can have moles in businesses, on players and with no independent contractor for illegal organizations to hire for help, what you gonna do? Stay outside the houses/businesses to speak. Or does /devicecheck not existent anymore?
/devicecheck can be used by every player on the server and anyone can kill a mole if they're close enough to it.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Pro Se » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:23 pm

otter. wrote: /devicecheck can be used by every player on the server and anyone can kill a mole if they're close enough to it.
I really think this should change when the Detective Job becomes available to civilians. Another big aspect of being a Detective was the RP 'training' that you had to be able to find bugs, moles, etc. Because Detectives could sell equipment for players to check their buildings, cars, etc. there was a measure of balance. Something like this should be brought back into the script.

The Job always had two aspects, in my mind: surveillance & counter-surveillance. I think I speak for several players when I say that when using the Detective Career as a civilian a big focus was offering a 'bug sweep' services, selling the equipment for players to check devices, and overall using the job like 'security guard' almost. Personally, that's what my character's RP was specifically - counter surveillance, sweeping properties for bugs and equipping clients with the tools to check for devices when a Detective wasn't around.


Does /devicecheck work in cars? If so - it kind of makes moles in a car pointless if everyone can do it, at any time.

If wires appear on a frisk for anyone, their use is severely limited. Wires in the 21st century are very easy to conceal, and would require a strip search to be found by an un-trained person.


Essentially what i'm saying is that making /devicecheck available to everyone at all times and making wires visible through a simple frisk really limits the actual need and demand for civilian Detectives. At the very least, Wiretaps should only be able to be found by a Detective or with a scanner etc. sold from an RC Van / Detective shop.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by otter » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Pro Se wrote:
otter. wrote: /devicecheck can be used by every player on the server and anyone can kill a mole if they're close enough to it.
I really think this should change when the Detective Job becomes available to civilians. Another big aspect of being a Detective was the RP 'training' that you had to be able to find bugs, moles, etc. Because Detectives could sell equipment for players to check their buildings, cars, etc. there was a measure of balance. Something like this should be brought back into the script.

The Job always had two aspects, in my mind: surveillance & counter-surveillance. I think I speak for several players when I say that when using the Detective Career as a civilian a big focus was offering a 'bug sweep' services, selling the equipment for players to check devices, and overall using the job like 'security guard' almost. Personally, that's what my character's RP was specifically - counter surveillance, sweeping properties for bugs and equipping clients with the tools to check for devices when a Detective wasn't around.


Does /devicecheck work in cars? If so - it kind of makes moles in a car pointless if everyone can do it, at any time.

If wires appear on a frisk for anyone, their use is severely limited. Wires in the 21st century are very easy to conceal, and would require a strip search to be found by an un-trained person.


Essentially what i'm saying is that making /devicecheck available to everyone at all times and making wires visible through a simple frisk really limits the actual need and demand for civilian Detectives. At the very least, Wiretaps should only be able to be found by a Detective or with a scanner etc. sold from an RC Van / Detective shop.
I get what you're saying but my reasoning behind the whole "everyone can /devicecheck thing" ultimately boils down to a couple of things:

- Bringing in a private investigator has its place in some walks of role-play, but in others it really just doesn't fit in. A street gang isn't exactly going to splash out on a private investigator just to check a complex for example, for moles but an organized crime syndicate on the other hand, could. The current way in which this is done allows for all types of role-play to have some sort of counter measure.

- What you said about counter-surveillance in investigative role-play is true, but that's one of the reasons I actually want it to not be exclusive to the job. A lot of factions had one person whose "dedicated role" was to have the detective job so they do mole checks etc. I don't want the job to be something have JUST to check for moles and what not, I have a vision of it promoting more exclusive role-play surrounding private investigations and I feel like for some people, /devicecheck would be the only incentive to get it.

It's worth noting that /devicecheck doesn't work in cars. If you want to protect yourself in that sense, you should keep your cars locked. It's hard enough for detectives to get an opportunity to find a vehicle spawned in as it is. If they manage to get into the car due to the negligence of its owner then it's all fair game.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Pro Se » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:49 pm

otter. wrote: - Bringing in a private investigator has its place in some walks of role-play, but in others it really just doesn't fit in. A street gang isn't exactly going to splash out on a private investigator just to check a complex for example, for moles but an organized crime syndicate on the other hand, could. The current way in which this is done allows for all types of role-play to have some sort of counter measure.

- What you said about counter-surveillance in investigative role-play is true, but that's one of the reasons I actually want it to not be exclusive to the job. A lot of factions had one person whose "dedicated role" was to have the detective job so they do mole checks etc. I don't want the job to be something have JUST to check for moles and what not, I have a vision of it promoting more exclusive role-play surrounding private investigations and I feel like for some people, /devicecheck would be the only incentive to get it.

It's worth noting that /devicecheck doesn't work in cars. If you want to protect yourself in that sense, you should keep your cars locked. It's hard enough for detectives to get an opportunity to find a vehicle spawned in as it is. If they manage to get into the car due to the negligence of its owner then it's all fair game.

You raise a lot of valid points, especially with the Job just being used as a 'devicechecker' profession. While I agree that moles should remain detectable by anyone I feel the need to stress the matter of Wiretaps specifically:

Firstly - just about everyone /frisks before a meeting, interview or assembly of any sort of importance. While you could RP that the Wiretap isn't found during the patdown etc. it's still openly known OOCly and players will adjust their behavior accordingly.

Secondly - as I said in my edit above, 21st century wiretaps are created and meant to be hidden during just such a thing as a frisk. A wiretap can easily be disguised as a button on a shirt, for example. Checking a person for wiretaps would require experience with using that sort of equipment in the past, knowing how/where they are usually placed and knowing what the 'modern' wiretaps look like (eg. a shirt button, a tie clip, a collar pin).


This is essentially the best of both worlds in that the Detective job would not exclusively able to check for moles, but they retain their 'counter-surveillance' unique role in being able to find Wiretaps. Also - what about trackers/tracers? Detectives should be able to check for (and kill) these devices in vehicles, additionally.*

Failing that, I still am in vehement opposition to Wiretaps appearing on a frisk. It really ruins the practical application of the command.

*Do you have to be inside a car to put a tracker on it? I'm guessing not?
*Can moles be places anywhere now? Or does it have to be inside?
Last edited by Pro Se on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Nexus » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:52 pm

How about changing the radius of the check based on whether you have the job or not? If you do have the detective job, the radius will be a bit bigger while if you're not, you'll have to stand right next to the mole to detect it?

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by notacop » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:05 pm

Nexus wrote:How about changing the radius of the check based on whether you have the job or not? If you do have the detective job, the radius will be a bit bigger while if you're not, you'll have to stand right next to the mole to detect it?
This is a fantastic idea. A player who has applied for and successuly received access to the Detective job should have a 'one-up' over civilians using the same command. (/devicecheck)

Pro Se wrote: If wires appear on a frisk for anyone, their use is severely limited. Wires in the 21st century are very easy to conceal, and would require a strip search to be found by an un-trained person.
If I go through the effort of planting a few moles to have them found by players who are purposely searching for those devices, that's fine. However, if I go through the effort of finding a 'rat', attaching a /wire, getting him into a meeting with some big mafia only to have him /frisk'd for a weapon. The /frisk will indicate he's wired..and like Pro_Se stated, the dynamic of the situation changes regardless if the wire is found ICly or not.

It may be a steep suggestion but I believe Detectives NEED to be hired for this level of counter-surveilance. Being able to identify the intricate equipment used for this kind of audio surveilance should be a skill exclusive to those who have access to said equipment.

otter. wrote: A lot of factions had one person whose "dedicated role" was to have the detective job so they do mole checks etc. I don't want the job to be something have JUST to check for moles and what not...
I believe you've already added balance in this realm. All of the Detective's audio surveillance commands can now be countered by any player. You've allowed organizations, legal or not, to order their members to do an entire sweep themselves by scowering their HQ, office, etc for moles using /devicecheck, and check for wires using /frisk.

The Detective job, especially now that it requires effort & an application, should maintain some exclusivity. As it stands right now there is no need to hire a detective for any measure of counter-surveillance, as any player can counter the commands.



TL;DR
Spoiler: show
Moles can be countered with time & effort (/devicecheck)..by anyone.
Wires can be countered in an instant (/frisk)....by anyone.

I suggest that a professional Detective MUST be required if you'd like to attach a wire to a player or distinguish if a player is wired.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by otter » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:31 am

I am finalising the public release of the detective job. Sorry for the wait - it shall not be much longer!

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by Pro Se » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:14 pm

otter. wrote:I am finalising the public release of the detective job. Sorry for the wait - it shall not be much longer!

Alright boys, douse the torches and stow the pitchforks.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by mattslayer » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:11 am

Fantastic release, thank you.

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Re: Detective Job Revision — Release

Post by OG $lim. » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:54 am

It's so good to see LSRP improving. Thank you for the great release.

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